Participants: Charlotte, Arif, members of Pasir Putih Community and mr. Nur in Lombok, Indonesia
Q: His soul is lost in the other world, right? Is the shaman getting his soul back from the other world?
A: The community brought him to the shaman, he is also the head of the boarding school. He could not always heal because every shaman has different skills. It depends on the kind of things he learned. If a person is lost, and if he had the right skills he could help, otherwise he couldn’t. Sometimes a person is lost, sometimes not. It is a process. So this is the process and people do understand it it is a process, so they don’t do any harm to this guy. But there is one guy in a process, he tried to burn a house. This was seen by the storyteller by his own eyes. But because he had no bad intention, the fire burns but the house was not burning. So there is fire, but there is nothing. Because this is not a metropolitan city, this is suburban area. So people still bring people with issues like this to the shaman. But they go to the psychiatrist as well. Together, they go to the shaman and to the psychiatrist. So there are several ‘crazy’, people who think about disoriented or get lost, there are several causes. The family knows if someone gets lost if he has a issue with the mental issue, if they found out he is using drugs, they bring him to the rehabilitation. If he has issue like depression, broken heart, family issue, or working stress, they (the family and chief of the village) will bring him to the hospital to get help. But still they are with the family and head of village. So the whole community is still responsible for that. But if he is getting lost because of the mental issue, because he was learning magic, they just leave him be. Because mostly the people are not harmful to those people. But also they think it is a process for this guy. There is one guy who has a problem with the mental issue. And then they know this guy, he has huge stones in the top of his house and its not breaking anything in his house. It is on the top, on the edge of his house. And it is not breaking anything. It doesn’t make any sense, because a huge stone like that supposed to break anything. And if the cows go inside of the house, the cows doesn’t shit. And a lot of people think if they make the person angry, they won’t have a good income. So he gets a lot of respect from society. So they just let him be.
Q: And I wonder, because in a lot of cultures, people go through that process, and when they come out of it, they become a shaman as well. Do they recognize that?
A:The people who has those things, they don’t think they are healthy. Because if we talk like this, they think our conversation is nonsense. They don’t think about the world anymore, they don’t think about materialism anymore. They are living in another space. But those people still has a lot of respect from others, from the local community. Because they gain a lot of knowledge. Those people are not stupid persons. They have a broad education. Mostly they are really intelligent people. And some people believe, he become an Imam in the mosque on Friday. And, several other people also witnessed, he become an Imam, also praying on a Friday in another mosque. So he could be in several places in the same time. And he told me his family saw him burning himself, and there were huge fires inside of his body, and he just doesn’t burn. So he could control the elements. If you want to know those people in the moslim, it is good to investigate Soefism. In Soefism they believe people have several levels in spiritualism, the more higher you have, the more you don’t care about the world. And that is a different perspective if you think people are crazy. Here people think they are not crazy, they just have a proces in a different level or reality than most people think. They do have a reality, but a different perspective. That is why people accept people who have a issue with mental health. For us it is a mental health issue because you couldn’t communicate with them. But for these people here it is not about a mental health issue, it is about a different proces in life.
Q: So those people maybe becoming like a shaman, because they are developing in the spiritual world.
A: Yes, they do.
Q: And the local community maybe take care of them if they are so far away they cannot even make food for themselves?
A: These are really complicated topics. He said, that still when he buy something, he sometimes doesn’t give the proper amount of money according to the price. But, if the seller refuse the food that he asked to eat, mostly the whole day they don’t get anything. So the sellers doesn’t have any income. Because if he refuse the money which is getting from this person, they believe they don’t get anything afterwards. So no customers will come to the shop anymore.
Q: So they just give the food, so he can eat. And maybe they don’t have any money, or less money, but they accept it.
A: And the local community also helps this guy, and the family also to taking care of him. He is just wondering around. So it’s allright. Mostly, a lot of people would like to give it to him. And the locals believe if you give something to him, you gain a lot of luck. But these people, they don’t want to take things. Because they don’t believe in materialism.
Q: Was he aware of the process where he was in?
A: We couldn’t understand where he was in. For those people, between exist and not, there is something in between. Existensialism doesn’t exist for those people. What is the meaning of exist? They don’t care. They have a different perspective. That is why people are taking care of him, because he has a different perspective than others. He has this himself, 10 years ago. He said, 10 years ago, he has those ideas about life. He doesn’t care about the money, he doesn’t care about transportation, so he just would like to be with God. He just goes out and wondering around. So he said, the trigger is from his friends. Actually, your existence is only based on what you have from the material things that you posses. But he said no, he could learn further than that. So he just walks around, and believes it is just between him and God. He forgets about anything for 7 months and he ends up in Bali. And I asked him, how does he get out from this situation. And he said, my believe is gone.
Q: Is it like, he went down, and automatically came up again?
A: No, there is no down and up.
Q: I ment down in a different reality and up again in this reality. It is a process by itself.
A: There was a time, and he just say ok, I just don’t believe it anymore and come back to reality. And that is it. I was talking, we are traveling around, we are talking about this and talking about the food. But they are human. The human himself. And I asked him, how does it go after 7 months. And he said, mostly, in the beginning, he start to jumping, because he as a Muslim believes in the 6 pillars. The mainframe to become a good muslim. And than he become, after several months, he said there is something not right. After he read the Qur’An, and then he ended with the Qur’An it self. And then he realize, it is not balanced what he did. And then he read about the story of the friends of Muhammed. And then he said, his friends don’t do those things. They are really humble people, but they are good and hard working people as well. So this is the way I not supposed to be. The Qur’An doesn’t tell me those things. The Qur’An tells me about 6 pillars and not only one. So and then, he learned further, he studied further about Muhammed his friends. And then he realize he needs to get back. It is not cool getting close to God all the time but forgetting about the humanity. It was his choice to come back. Because he said a lot of people doesn’t want it. Those people just want to getting up in the high and that it not good. And thats why he choose to come back again to apply it to the humanity. Because he is jumping to knowledge. He is not like, step by step, the 6 pillars of the Muslim, you have to follow one step to another step, there are 6 rules. But he is only jumping to 1 rule. And that is why he is lost.
Q: Can I ask one more question?
A: He said, he is a little bit nervous because he is opening a secret.
Q: I understand, yes.
A: He was already comfortable with the higher purpose. So he doesn’t want to hang out with the human anymore because they are just servants. Why should I hang out with the servants if I can hang out with the Boss al the time? So and then he realized, it is not a good idea to live like this. Because the Boss said, if you would like to hang out with me you need to hang out with my servants as well. Because he learned the Qur’An. He has a will to find the knowledge. And then he found out he is lost. He does not do the balanced life.
Q: Lots of times, people get into this proces because of trauma or illness. Does he recognize that?
A: So he has a traumatic experience. There was someone who he trust, and this person was dishonest and breaking his trust to humanity. And than he tried to pray and call Allah all the time. And at that time he found the truth because of praying. And he doesn’t want to believe in humanity anymore because he found comfortable things into God. Than he get lost. Then he getting closer to the God and believes like that, and lost everything. That was quite hard for him.
Q: He lost everything? That is also part of the process. A lot of people, they lose everything and have to build up everything again.
A: He found the therapy for the massage from those things. So that he is how he get this knowledge.